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The second step is the training speed. In BB there are some ways of using the training and training speed. During my analisys I came to the following things:

There are three skills which I almost never train. JS, HA and ID.
Some of you may be surprised why. It's because of the training order.

JS:
In Utopia I trained Ettig, my current SF. He has JS 15, JR 15, HA 16, DR 17 and IS 17. I trained only three skills to achieve these five.
If you start with 1on1 Forwards, you train DR, HA, JS and IS. As soon as you reach your DR level, switch to JR.
JR will train JS as a secondary skill. I managed to achieve JS 15 and JR 15 at the same time.
The last skill was IS. With the first training as a 22 old, the reached IS 15 and was finished.
With this I had 8 ups in JS and 8 in HA without training these two skills even once.

HA:
HA benefits from 1on1 and PA. If you train these two things before HA, you don't have to invest some time in HA training.

ID:
The most interresting skill ;) During the training of Haek, I understood that ID works like JS.
I started with OD and got every 6-8 weeks an up in ID. And if you train from 5 up to 18 there are some ups in ID, trust me. After that I switched to SB and trained it up till 19. SB works analog to OD. In the beginning, you receive every 4-5 weeks an up in ID. Later every 6-8.
For those who train RB, this will train ID too.
So in the end, until you finish all the defense skills, ID will reach its level by secondary training.

With the right order, I managed to train Haek to the status of the "best defender in BB" with just a level 4 coach. I calculated, that if I used a level 7 coach, he would have 9 more ups... these 9 would be perfect at RB ;)
For Ettig I used a level 3 and later level 4 coach.

What kind of skillsets could be NT relevant?

JS 18 - JR 18 - OD 18 - HA 15 - DR 15 - PA 10 -> Pot 10 player, a MVP has to go with -1JS and -1JR. Current salary around 115k.

JS 17 - JR 17 - OD 10 - HA 15 - DR 17 - PA 8 - IS 17 - ID 17 - RB 4 - SB 17 -> my current project, I have no clue if I will reach this skillset, but that's a all-tactics-PF with a destructive force. You would need a player like Haek to stop him m2m and a 3-2 zone would have its problems because he has a SG-like outside scoring

JS 10 - JR 10 - OD 10 - HA 10 - DR 10 - PA 15 - IS 10 - ID 18 - RB 18 - SB 18 -> a defense C with a high passing. ideal supporter for outside tactics and a force against inside tactics. With 140k also very cheap

JS 13 - JR 10 - OD 10 - HA 15 - DR 17 - PA 10 - IS 19 - ID 18 - RB 17 - SB 5 -> around 13 seasons ago I mentored a manager and he build a player like this one. The player is a very strong and can score against non-SB guys. Unfortunately with such low SB you can't expect that your defense will be like a fortress. Around 200k...

JS 16 - JR 16 - OD 16 - HA 16 - DR 16 - PA 16 - IS 16 - ID 16 - RB 16 - SB 16 -> "THE PERFECT SF". This guy would be loved by the engine because he is the most balanced player you can achieve in this game. And the game was design for balanced players. But I don't know if this is even doable. You would need an 18y/o with around 196-201cm and the right distribution of skills, not 10x7 but lower DR and maybe IS to prevent that these to skills grow to fast. Over 220k.

Bottom line:
I could go for hours and sho skillsets, but the important point is, that you have to decide at the beginning, "what do I want?". And starting from there, you go for the offense, defense or balanced guy and only invest your time and ressources in the necessary skills. Why do you need JS 17 for a defensive C? Or PA 16 for a scoring PF? There is always a point where there is no reason to go on further. So switch to the A skills and train him to 17+, cause that's were the real NT level starts.

Is there any chance you can train a 18y player to be a NT-player after you had trained him to be a monster/star in u-21 NT?

I like your post!

Yes, there is.

If you take a look at the current german NT, there are some former U21 players who played for my U21 teams (Broszeit, Gottlieb, Mackensen, Jägermeister).

Broszeit is the best example. With 20 years, he already was part of the U21 team. His inside skills were already high enough. With 21y he had a salary of 100k (3x15 inside skills) and was the centerpiece of the team. Now he is one of the most successful players in the NT history of Germany.

Same goes for Guards or Forwards. The question is always, is the manager ready to sacrifice his team or a part of his success? Most of the time it's really hard to train a player outside of his position and be successful.

Last edited by Nachtmahr at 11/25/2015 15:45:18

Yes, there is.

If you take a look at the current german NT, there are some former U21 players who played for my U21 teams (Broszeit, Gottlieb, Mackensen, Jägermeister).

Broszeit is the best example. With 20 years, he already was part of the U21 team. His inside skills were already high enough. With 21y he had a salary of 100k (3x15 inside skills) and was the centerpiece of the team. Now he is one of the most successful players in the NT history of Germany.

Same goes for Guards or Forwards. The question is always, is the manager ready to sacrifice his team or a part of his success? Most of the time it's really hard to train a player outside of his position and be successful.

I see! :)
Can you say how a trainingplan can look like for a player like Broszeit to reach 3x15 to u-21 NT?

Broszeit was kind of strange. His manager trained him for the U21 and for the NT at the same time.

Broszeit had IS 7, ID 7 and RB 7.
His manager trained him in a balanced way. He started with ID until 9, switched to IS and trained it until 9. Than RB until 9. Again ID until 11, than RB 12, than ID 13 and after that IS 13. Than RB 13, after that ID 14.
With 20y he had IS 13, ID 14 and RB 13.
From here on ID until 15, after that IS 15 and the last one RB 15. He reached RB 15 with the first training as a 21y/o.
With 21years we switched to 1on1 forwards and he had 21 ups during the season!

There is a second way to train such a player.
You start with RB. As soon as you have the first up, you switch to ID. After ID has an up you move to IS. And from IS back to RB and so on. The big differene between the U21 program and NT program is, that a U21 player should be balanced in his A skills when he reaches the U21. But the way you train him towards this doesn't mean it's an ideal way for a NT player.
The best thing is, a pot 7 player can be enough to train such a 3x15 C for the U21. If you go for IS 14, ID 14 and RB 13 a pot 6 player can reach it.

Thanks for your answer! I hope the swedish community can take ideas from this.

Rosen?????

Following this path to train primary skills first - is one sacrificing some of the secondary skills?

Say my C (224 CM) - if I train his inside first and then move to fill the gaps in the secondaries - I am losing roughly 20-40% efficiency in training. Looking to the training simulator (the US-offsite one), efficiency is at 80% at age 22 and the outside skills are penalized heavily by his length.

Playing around with the training speeds using the US offsite coefficients (assuming everything being equal and no elastic effects) makes me worried that one loses all possibility of training secondaries after 20 here. The image shows the number of weeks it would take for my player to pop using the best option for training:

7"4 player: http://i.imgur.com/O7n4g4w.png
6"0 player: http://imgur.com/TUVDFWE

I mean - training OD (considered a key skill) after 21 means adding 2 weeks of training to reach one pop....










Last edited by Randy Maus at 11/26/2015 17:26:13

Depends on...
if we are talking about U21 players, every week outside the A skill training is a lost week. You want as much A skills for your player as fast as possible.

if we talk about NT players, why would you stop training with 26 or 27? I know users who trained their guys until an age of 32 (e.g. Sauron). And if you need 10 weeks for one up, so what? I trained Haek for his up from SB 18 to 19 for 9 weeks. But I knew, that he can defend at least every position. Same goes for a C. He has his A skills, he will stay his ground.

Some secondaries are useless. Don't get me wrong, every skill has it's benefits, but in certain situations some of them aren't worth training.
Let me take your OD example. You have a 224cm big guy and even with 18y it's a pain to train his OD. First, why would you train it without the elastic effect of DR? And second, do you need OD for this player?
Before I start with the training, I ask myself what I really want:
1) Which position? - C
2) Which offense? - Outside.
3) Which defense - 3-2 zone.

A C in the outside tactics and a 3-2 zone needs HA, PA, ID, RB and SB. These five are his most important skills. A 3-2 C won't defend a 3pt shot. And he will stay inside the zone or at the key and try to block mid range and close range shots. Isn't it more important to go for a leading player in these skills, than an all-skills average guy?

And there is one little evil thing in BB: Charles programmed a limited growth.
An example:
You have a player with OD 10. Your opponent has one with JS 10.
You are equal. Now, your opponent has an up and his JS is at 11. He gets a bonus over your player.
JS 10+a
He trains his guy and he has an up to 12 (b), to 13 (c), to 14 (d) and to 15 (e).
So in the end we have this formula:
JS 10 + a + b + c + d + e
Now the evil/nasty thing:
a>b>c>d>e
Every up is worth less and less in comparition to your OD 10. It's a limited growth towards a border. And in BB the crucial point is around three skills diference. This was implemented to protect newbies or weaker teams against overwhelming opponents. This limited growth is responsible for the fact, that there is no 90% or higher FG over a season. You just have to be 1 or 2 skills ahead of the others. That's enough.

If we jump back to your OD situation, what does it mean for your C? Let's say he plays against a JS 13 or PA 10 NT Center. You train him from OD 1 (I guess he had OD 1 with such a height) to 7 or 8 and in the end you have almost no impact. He will be still too far away from the JS 13 or PA 10 guy. And if you have to defend a JS 17 JR 17 SG? He's doomed.

To be honest, OD is an overrated skill. Noone trained SB or JR. You can ask Manon, I was one of the first who trained SB. Even before Marin changed the engine, I said that SB isn't broken.
There are three skills which can outplay OD:
DR - the highest average skill besides OD in BB
JR - second lowest in BB
PA - third lowest in BB
How can two of the three lowest skills in BB outplay one of the two highest ones? It's impossible. The power of OD is the lack of it's conterskills. IS is loosing ground because of SB. And to weaken OD, you have to train JR and PA. Utopia is my playground. There I trained tweo JS 15 JR 15 guys. It's a paradise. At least one of them scores because the best OD player can't stop both of them. I bought another one with JS 14 JR 13 and he supports them perfectly.
For guards and forwards, OD is a must-have. But for a C... I'm very sceptical if it's not wiser to let some skills be low and push the real damaging skills to a maximum. 1 season with perfect training speed (18y/o) is much more worth at an inside skill than on OD (on a 224cm C).

That's my opinion and I like discussing all possible skillsets and ways of training, but I'm one of the few guys who says: you need a skillplan and than train only the needed skills.

Last edited by Nachtmahr at 11/27/2015 13:57:36

Hrm I do see your overall point but I am still skeptical about some aspects. Lots to think about and test out ! Thanks for the great insider info!

If you keep the OD too low (<6-7) - all players will be burn you as the game tactic will adjust to take advantage of the mismatch so it should be worth to ensure that the opponent has to play a balanced games rather than just abusing your main weaknesses.

If waiting until the later years to plug the secondary holes then one must sacrifice game shape as you'd want to play the player in his natural position for the key game and then play him again out of position to train him. This feels like a poor strategy (especially with the new changes).

I still feel that one would maximize the utility of a high potential player by first creating an all-around base and then playing him in position as to get pops for his primaries. You'd reach high levels during his prime and be able to maximize both use and cost.




Last edited by Randy Maus at 11/27/2015 16:29:08

I still feel that one would maximize the utility of a high potential player by first creating an all-around base and then playing him in position as to get pops for his primaries. You'd reach high levels during his prime and be able to maximize both use and cost.

That's for the average height players. But from a certain point onwards, some skills collied with the height. Passing is insanly benefited from height and the elastic effect. I trained a guy who had 7 ups in 9 weeks. In the Bundesliga is a SF who had 9 ups in 11 weeks. And currently one of our managers trains a C and he had 7 ups in 8 weeks or so.
But OD and often JR are a desaster if they are to low from the beginning. DR 1, HA 1, even JS 1 are skills which can be handled, OD and JR can't. The effort you would put in, will never give you the same amount of benefits back.

If you keep the OD too low (<6-7) - all players will be burn you as the game tactic will adjust to take advantage of the mismatch

OD has (almost) no effect inside the paint. Same goes for JS and JR. These skills are part of the calculation starting from edge of the paint. Zone can be used to hid such weaknesses. Not totaly, but most of it.

I still feel that one would maximize the utility of a high potential player by first creating an all-around base and then playing him in position as to get pops for his primaries.

Yes, I agree. And here we have an important point: maximize utility and train the fastest way or train for the U21 AND NT can be diffrent things. What I'm saying is, that there are many ways to achieve 130+ total skill points. I saw and mentored some of them. Every way has its benefits and disadvantages (e.g. Pot 10 player capped with 24 years). In the end it's up to the manager which way he/she will choose.

It's time for a little overview.
Often it's an issue that there is no defined target. It doesn't matter if we take RL or BB. You start something doing and you don't know exactly what you want, so you just do something and time passes by. That's the same problem with trainees. After the draft I evaluate my draftees and decide after 2-3 days what I will do (set a target). I fire them or they receive training. Sometimes they hit the TL. But all of this happens before the first game.
I want to do something similar to it. I want a target for you guys. The NT. And everyone with a draftee/trainee pot 9 or higher can participate.
My idea ist that there will be a list with the current NT players and the prospects. I already posted some of the players further down. After the draft, you can decide if you want to train your high pot player towards the NT. Just post here or write me a mail. I will post your guy(s) on the list and from that point on, they will be watched.
You have to come up with a training plan. You can have your own ideas or/and discuss and get input from the other managers. Your skill sets can be standard or absolutly crazy. The important part will always be, that you, as a community, have the target to strenghten your team. If 3-4 managers decide to take part in this project every season, than there will be a huge player pool with around 25-30 players for every season. And with this the NT will be able to play on a higher level and use every tactic.

NT pool / monitored players:

30+:
Hulten (22673709)
Akersten (23628505)
Sommarborg (22673873)
Martinsson (26026001)
Persson (24959587)
Carlsson (24959253)
Mazzolini (26311479)
Tunggard (26311181)
Sandbom (26311732)
Gilland (26311336)

29:
Tuikkala (27460888)
Molner (27460754)
Claesson (27461066)

28:
Tjädermo (28622932)
Widerström (28622847)
Everland (28622993)
Adolfsson (29885532)

27:
Öby (29885591)

26:
Fredriksson (30857798)
Svensson (30858568)
Forslund (30857767)
Wedling (30858004)

25:
Gijon (31909798)
Tullander (32516421)
Hakansson (31909899)

24:
Svensson (32810186)

23:
Birgersson (33689864)
Tungell (34495683)

22:
Gustavsson (35350163)
Carlsson (34495290)

21:
Säfen (35350416)
Ismar (35935391)
Sunesson (36171202)
Dehllund (36171465)
Rolandsson(35350312)

20:
Lagerhall (36171154)

19:
Westerlund (36975313)
Danielsson (37787598)
Lövlind (36975297)

So, if you have a young player who is trained towards the NT and you can't find him on the list, just post here a message.

Last edited by Nachtmahr at 12/03/2015 15:26:17