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Box and One

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This Post:
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292460.4 in reply to 292460.3
Date: 02/10/2018 05:35:31
Tamarillo Wings
IV.17
Overall Posts Rated:
707707
Second Team:
Slam Drunk Celtics
Yes I'm sure, I played several games with the Box. Has to be intended as 'inside Box' & 'and One' for example, so the Box defend the inside (and not only of course), and the one defend the best in the outside. In that way, the best offensive player on the outside will be defended both by the Box + a m2m defence.

I never understood why the rules are so wrong talking about the Box.

I can provide you some examples about my games: (98090053), (98090056), (98090077), (99433922).
My +1 was 16 OD 16 ID 10 SB. Well, in those games I was testing the tactic, and in some of those cases clearly the Box used was the opposite one needed. But, anyway, studying the opponent player and the playbyplay, that was pretty clear. Looking at the Boxscore things are pretty limited.

The China U-21 use the Box frequently. Studying them it's easier to see the effect.
(43812). Philippines with Motion, China with a perfect Inside Box. The +1 defender shut down the best opponents outside offensive player: 5/16.
(43806). Another Inside Box, the defence shut down the PG: 2/16.
(43804) Another Inside, the PG finished 6/24.


There was a thread in global however, where Nachtmahr ran good tests using Haek, the "perfect" defender
He was assuming, as you, the Box should have worked as the game manual said. I saved part of the thread:

Game 3:(81780650)
Outside box +1

My third try. According to the manual I expected that Haek will defend the SG (110k and 2 mio DMI). But was afraid that he will play against the PF (79k and 1.49 mio DMI). It was the PF. And he was stopped.
My PF defended again most of the shots. He had 24 defense actions. My SF defended most of his play time inside. And my C with OD 1 had a lot of long range and mid range shots against him. So a really bad situation.


Game 4:(81780654)
Inside box +1

After three games with outside box, I went to the inside box. Here I already expected that Haek would defend the best outside player. Bullseye! It was the SG. And he had a really bad day against my defense monster ;)

At the same time my other four starters moved more to the inside. The had more mid and close range defense actions now. My idea was that Haek was at the top and the other four moved between him and the rim.

The result (for me):
Outside box: Four players move to the outside. The best OD+ID+SB player is the +1 and he gets m2m with the best calculated inside offense option of the opponent. He will stop him, but there is no guarantee that another player (2nd option) won't step up.

Inside box: Four player move to the inside. Again the best defender is the +1. But this time he defends m2m the best outside offense option.


Last edited by GM-samusaran (ITA-Staff) at 02/10/2018 05:38:49

This Post:
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292460.5 in reply to 292460.4
Date: 02/10/2018 06:57:35
aberteam
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
590590
Second Team:
abersquad
If it works that way it's against rules description. And it would bring to a misunderstanding.
Any official reply from GMs?

This Post:
00
292460.6 in reply to 292460.5
Date: 02/10/2018 07:12:40
Tamarillo Wings
IV.17
Overall Posts Rated:
707707
Second Team:
Slam Drunk Celtics
I agree with your that's weird and/or wrong. I was thinking exactly as you before starting studying them in a deeper way, and it was the ineffectiveness of what I was seeing in the play-by-play that pushed me considering different options.

EGM-Manon wrote in that thread: "I'm sorry but my knowledge about this is just as good as anyone else. No more knowledge about things comes with the extra E sadly". I guess the easiest way would be asking to BB-Marin an explanation

This Post:
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292460.7 in reply to 292460.4
Date: 02/10/2018 13:15:35
white snake
Bundesliga
Overall Posts Rated:
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Second Team:
Black Forest Boars
You are correct. I analyzed the boxes more than 10 seasons ago and came to the same result. There are also posts from me here in the help threads on this topic. I send my results to Marin and he answered me, that it would take a lot of time to run an exact test and see if the description in the manual is wrong.

From: aber

This Post:
00
292460.9 in reply to 292460.7
Date: 02/10/2018 17:45:35
aberteam
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
590590
Second Team:
abersquad
You are correct. I analyzed the boxes more than 10 seasons ago and came to the same result. There are also posts from me here in the help threads on this topic. I send my results to Marin and he answered me, that it would take a lot of time to run an exact test and see if the description in the manual is wrong.

This means that they implemented a tactic not knowing exactly the way it workeď.

Nice.

From: aber

To: aber
This Post:
00
292460.10 in reply to 292460.9
Date: 02/10/2018 18:03:49
aberteam
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
590590
Second Team:
abersquad
Anyway in real basketball a box is something that defend strong in the lane and grabs lots of rebounds while the m2m defender goes against the best opponent shooter. I can't see the logic of a box pushing the defense outside the lane, it's just not a box, it's maybe 1-3-1 zone or something else. There should be just one kind of box, protecting the zone near the basket. Something like 2-3 but taking care of the most dangerous long range shooter.
If it would be clear the way it works maybe someone it would use it. I play since 2012 and maybe I've played once against a box and one and I can't remember I tried it more than one time.
Useless at this point.

This Post:
11
292460.11 in reply to 292460.7
Date: 02/11/2018 05:39:37
Tamarillo Wings
IV.17
Overall Posts Rated:
707707
Second Team:
Slam Drunk Celtics
Yes I remember that thread, it was very useful to understand how actually is working

Pretty unsatisfactory reply from Marin though!

This Post:
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292460.12 in reply to 292460.10
Date: 02/11/2018 05:46:51
Tamarillo Wings
IV.17
Overall Posts Rated:
707707
Second Team:
Slam Drunk Celtics
Could even be an option that the Box will stay at the same position, and the only change is represented by the m2m defender. The differences among shooting selections might be due to the reaction against the defender at the top or close to the basket.

However, even admitting that, the problem is who your m2m is defending. It's all switched (BoxI against best outside, BoxO against best inside)

This Post:
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292460.13 in reply to 292460.4
Date: 02/13/2018 14:46:55
Overall Posts Rated:
103103
Great Analsys!

Congrats.

This cleared much my doubts about Boxes defensives