BuzzerBeater Forums

yeah it was odd to see teams with nearly ALL players at 7 after the first GS update.

this team here with awful minute management had 14 players dropping from 7 to 5 in a week....(277177) then only 1 drop the following week.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 05/16/2015 07:21:48

Right...and I suppose the 14 double GS drops in the same week on the same team are also in line with what you say. Maybe you can find another team forfeiting the first 3 games in a previous season (or playing the same 5 man lineup for 3 games) and show us that something like this is actually has always been a common occurrence or that at least there were similar episodes.

Until then and until you have evidence to back up your claims, your guess is as good as any. Especially after we know that Marin feels entitled to decide which information about changes he should share and which he should keep to himself.

Note that bot teams playing 5 man-lineups like the one I linked or forfeiting all games are the easiest to assess whether some change has been made...

Last edited by Lemonshine at 05/16/2015 07:51:40

This is a horrible way of testing. There will always be outliers if chance is involved, but outliers are seldom identical.

You are trying to compare one outlier to an older outlier. This does not make ANY sense from a statistical point of view.

It's funny to see that apparently it is up to Marin or Perpete to prove you're wrong. So now they are guilty because you say so until they can prove otherwise? Wow, that's great.

How about you take the effort to compare a number of teams and create a statistically valid sample mean. And compare that to previous seasons. If then there is reason to believe you are right with your allegations, I bet we all would be a lot more happy to talk. Now it's just empty words.



Last edited by Bolleboosje at 05/16/2015 08:29:32

joined with the above point, as you can see, i have 5 players in 9 GS and and 6 players in 8 GS that's 11 players of a 15 man roster, obviously the other 4 just play about 30 mins a week to balance the game shape...

i had about 7-8 guys or so at strong after the 1st week, I don't see the problem. I've always had good GS updates to start the season. Perhaps you should rethink your minutes strategy instead of trying to assign blame or make an excuse for how you're managing your players.

It's funny to see that apparently it is up to Marin or Perpete to prove you're wrong. So now they are guilty because you say so until they can prove otherwise? Wow, that's great.

Wow that's clever. Read again and don't build a straw man to attack. Perpete is stating things as facts. Since Marin clearly stated he doesn't disclose all the changes he makes, Perpete's statements are just his opinion, they are not facts. More precisely, they are opinions presented as facts. Do you want me to bold another of this sentences, so perhaps you will understand my point instead of misinterpreting it?

Indeed, everybody in this thread is speculating, but the only one stating his opinion as facts is Perpete. This is why I challenged him and not others...

You are trying to compare one outlier to an older outlier.

Let me explain it for you so maybe you understand :). From a statistical point of view comparing apples and apples in this kind of analysis is hard. Even you got that. Therefore I went the extra step and picked from this sample:
- Players who were guaranteed to have exactly 7 GS (because it was reset)
- Players who did not play any minute or played over 130 minutes. These players have either played the maximum or the minimum a player can play

This sample can be replicated for previous seasons. You following? If no changes have been made I would expect 0 minute and 140 minute guys GS behaving in a similar way and dropping at a similar pace.

Now, if Perpete or you, assuming you believe him, are right I'm sure it would be pretty straightforward to find similar occurrences in previous seasons under the same circumstances. This wouldn't be definitive proof, of course, but at least it would show that what Perpete is stating as fact is at least possible or likely.

Now it's just empty words.

You mean like Perpete's or your empty words on the topic? Yeah I thought so. |-O


Now would you like to try again, but sticking to what I said instead of something you'd like me to have said?

Keep in mind that there are several players that in the first week who popped in GS with low minutes (below 48), this guy double popped to proficient with 48 minutes: (34618432). This alone is not in line with what is commonly accepted about GS and I therefore think that Brutus and others are perfectly entitled to question whether or not something has been changed and I'd think they are also perfectly entitled not to get the usual dismissive answer from Perpete without proof, especially not after the farce re: "we changed 3 point shots", "oh no we didn't", "oh yeah we didn't do it this season, but we did in previous seasons, but it's a secret".

Last edited by Lemonshine at 05/16/2015 13:40:20

Since it says EGM-Perpete, I still assume he is aware of changes. So when he replied to your post (if the BB's fiddled the GS formula) with "Nah, each season start, we have people wondring if the GS has changed. Apart the recent changes with the stamina, it hasn't." - That is about when I believe him, because I simply do not see any reason to believe the GS formula has been changed. My team is not behaving in a different way than I am used (sometimes I'm lucky at the start of the season, sometimes not, this season I'm somewhere in between). Also in the league around me, I do not see any results that alarm me. But hey, that's just me.

Of course, you have the right to question Perpete's words. Which is fine. The thing that I dislike about your post though, is that you ask for evidence to back up his claims, but do not show any evidence yourself. You only show a current situation and say it was different last season. The behavior of players under the same circumstance last season however you don't show. For that reason it is, as I said before; empty words. You're taking on the role of a little kid who says "I can run twice as fast as I could last year. Unless you prove me otherwise". How about you show us the speed you can run with now (perhaps your personal best from a match) and show us the speed you used to run with last season (your personal best from a match in the past?).
But no, apparently when I ask for this I am building a straw-man argument.

Let me explain it for you so maybe you understand :). From a statistical point of view comparing apples and apples in this kind of analysis is hard. Even you got that. Therefore I went the extra step and picked from this sample:

Thanks for that jab^^ Now let's get back to actual content instead of throwing mud or taking/making things personal. It's too bad you removed a part of your message (to be exact this part:)

This sample can be replicated for previous seasons and since I've had players with 0 minutes in the first week in the past I can guarantee you they did not have a double drop in GS. For the team I linked every single player playing 0 minutes or 130+ had a double drop.

I was about to react to the above before you removed it. I could show you 2 of my players which were injured (or which I didn't use) and made 0 minutes which dropped 2 levels in GS and afterwards one. There is a great function in Buzzer-manager which keeps track of that.

But since you already removed that part of your post, I guess you also figured out it is not as unusual as you thought. Too bad you didn't write that but simply removed it.

Keep in mind that there are several players that in the first week who popped in GS with low minutes (below 48), this guy double popped to proficient with 48 minutes: (34618432). This alone is not in line with what is commonly accepted about GS and I therefore think that Brutus and others are perfectly entitled to question whether or not something has been changed

Players who pop in gameshape below 48 minutes is nothing new to me. So I don't see any reason to make a fuss about this.
About the double pop for the player who made 49 minutes, I honestly don't know. But it is a fact that there is randomness to the GS update (just as to a lot of other things in this game). I have had players with 48 minutes double pop in GS, but I can not recall if this was at the beginning of the season. Either way, to me, it doesn't raise a red flag until someone can show me that this is truly out of the ordinary compared to previous season (and once again, that would need a valid sample size because this can simply be an outlier).

Of course, you have the right to question Perpete's words. Which is fine. The thing that I dislike about your post though, is that you ask for evidence to back up his claims, but do not show any evidence yourself.

For the 4th time, I have nothing to prove as I did not claim anything as a fact, even something as little as boosting minimally the impact of stamina. Perpete did and therefore it seems perfectly logical that he backs up his claims, or that the only developer left in the game (Marin) comes here and says that he has made no change, this season and last season and the season before (just in case, for the avoidance of doubt).

I only floated the idea that something unusual could be going on as I've seen weird GS behaviour and so were other people. My personal favourite is a top team in my league who had 7>6 on 12 out 13 players and the following week they went all back up, some with a single pop some with a double, including a double pop on this fellow (15038631) who got injured and only played 43 minutes. Are you starting to see a pattern where weird stuff happens and poor minute allocation leads to improvements in GS, sometimes double pops, while "conventional" minute allocation leads to drops? However, now for the 5th time, being puzzled and wondering if something has happened is not the same as claiming to be sure that nothing has happened and imply that people here are moaning like they moan at the start of every single season.

Since it says EGM-Perpete, I still assume he is aware of changes.

I urge you to check the ask BBs and following threads, so you will understand how the communication on GE changes works between the devs and GMs work. I'm going to go out on a limb and loosely quote hrudey here, when he clarified that the development team is currently a single person, Marin, who does all the changes. That leaves no doubt for interpretation.

Thanks for that jab^^

Well, I thought I'd reply in the same tone, jabs included.

I guess you also figured out it is not as unusual as you thought. Too bad you didn't write that but simply removed it.

Again we seem to be having some communication issues. I removed it because it was not pertinent. I know that in S31 a 0 minute player can drop either by 1 or 2 levels (and sublevels), my problem is whether that was the case in the past too (and the earliest you need to go is the first week of S30) and what the GS pattern was for players who got consistently 0 minutes every week thereafter. The variability (or lack of it) in today's GS results after the first week given a specific amount of minutes is not in question, we all agree it's there and it was not the point to begin with The problem is whether the swings are different and depend on minutes played in a different way than they did in the past.

Anecdotal evidence in the past pointed at better results in the first 2 weeks when overplaying your players a little (meaning closer to 72, maybe higher). This season many people who overplayed got drops and it looks like double drops and double pops are also more frequent than in the past. The problem is that it's difficult to compare because you'd need to compare to a large enough sample of GS updates from a season or more ago. So what we're doing in this thread is speculating. Everyone except for Perpete, who is mathematically sure nothing has happened, there are no bugs and no changes have been made (despite not being the one making those changes) since the last official changes.

Players who pop in gameshape below 48 minutes is nothing new to me. So I don't see any reason to make a fuss about this.

The player I linked previously double popped in the second week with 43. This player (36692852) double dropped the first week on 27 minutes and TRIPLE POPPED on 40 minutes in the second week...

So yeah I don't have a crystal ball, but I think questions on GS are fair

Last edited by Lemonshine at 05/16/2015 18:46:44

Listen, we can keep on shouting things. Keep on discussing on what points we disagree. Or we can show what we know. In stead of meaningless words all over.

I can show you one of my players who double dropped last season when he made 0 minutes after an injury, perhaps that takes away a part of your doubts. Find that here- http://oi61.tinypic.com/sxna0i.jpg . And yes, that was last season (as you can see by the date mentioned on the left as well).

I can't find a double pop on 48 minutes on my team, I didn't update my buzzer-manager stats each week, so no confirmation directly from my team (because I think I had it happen last season of the season before, but I can't be sure of that anymore). Within the old buzzerbeater forums I was able to find people who had a double pop after 50 min. http://www.buzzerbeater.com/community/forum/read.aspx?thr... in the first week of the season. Of course it's not conclusive evidence or anything, but it is something.

Now let's see what you have to share.

The player I linked previously double popped in the second week with 43. This player (36692852) double dropped the first week on 27 minutes and TRIPLE POPPED on 40 minutes in the second week...

I, to my knowledge, have never seen a triple pop. Do you use buzzer manager to keep track of your players? If you could show us/me at least this part of your claim, I think a lot more people would be inclined to confer over your point of view on the GS matter.
Because right now I tend to think you're wrong (also because you claim your player double dropped on 27 minutes, which cleary would only have been 9 playing minutes taken into account for the GS update). To me this means you don't keep the right track of your players, but hey, perhaps you can backup your claim. I surely hope you can, it would suddenly make this topic a lot more interesting.

To me this means you don't keep the right track of your players, but hey, perhaps you can backup your claim. I surely hope you can, it would suddenly make this topic a lot more interesting.

Dude, seriously? Just drop the condescending tone and stop making a fool of yourself. I'd understand if you had something to say, but you came in this thread just to attack me, accusing me and debating based on things I've never said. There is only so much buffoonery I can take.

You don't need to be the owner to be able to see my player's GS movements in the last 3 weeks. This is common knowledge, how the hell do you scout your opponents? I don't think you're ignorant on the matter, so you must be just lazy. Since I'm extremely generous, I will help your laziness, so brace yourself because you're about to have to eat your crow.


Note: for the 6th time (but you seem not able to understand this very basic concept) the guy you showed did not double drop after a season reset. Nowhere I said a player could not double drop. I said that pretty much an entire team double dropped in the first week this season and I've never seen anything like it. I hope you can understand the difference, but I'm starting to lose faith and chalk you off as a lost cause. Good night.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 05/17/2015 19:19:20