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I thought they were going to adjust game shape levels to compensate for high stamina guys?

I think they did, but it wasn't a super huge compensation.

Welcome to the league, by the way!

Time to put on my big boy pants for my second visit to DII!

I thought they were going to adjust game shape levels to compensate for high stamina guys?

They are, but it doesn't change that it's a problem.

I also think that adjusting game shape doesn't get to the real issue, which is the substitution logic.

The GE seems to make substitutions when the guy on the floor has become tired to the point that the next guy is an overall better option. As a result, a player with high stamina doesn't sub out because his value doesn't drop enough so that the backup is a better option.

By that logic, most NBA stars would never be subbed out. Really they are subbed out when they need a rest in order to allow them to play at a higher level throughout the remainder of the game. Better to take a few minutes of a lesser player in each of the first three quarters so that the star is still at a very high level at the end of the game.

Also, as anyone who has played an OT game has seen, the GE tends to start OT with all your backups. Very weird.

I also think that adjusting game shape doesn't get to the real issue, which is the substitution logic.

The GE seems to make substitutions when the guy on the floor has become tired to the point that the next guy is an overall better option. As a result, a player with high stamina doesn't sub out because his value doesn't drop enough so that the backup is a better option.

By that logic, most NBA stars would never be subbed out. Really they are subbed out when they need a rest in order to allow them to play at a higher level throughout the remainder of the game. Better to take a few minutes of a lesser player in each of the first three quarters so that the star is still at a very high level at the end of the game.

Yep. Which is why I pretty much hate training stamina, since I like my team to get more balanced minutes. I know last season a couple of times (mostly PL I think, though), when I'd run a slow offense and not get a blowout, Schultz would end up playing 46 or more minutes, and that's with only respectable stamina. Philosophically, I'd love to have good stamina on my players, since every little bit of advantage helps, but still maintain the ability to get at least 12 minutes if not more from my backups. I've suggested several times that there should be some sort of sub priority by position in the lineup - "run them ragged" (keep starters in as much as possible) / "rotate frequently" (aim for 24/24) / "normal rotation" (36/12ish) / "let coach decide" for example. I'd love to be able to have my three big men play in rotation at the four and five, and have the ability to have the guards/SF positions be set up so that I could put specific players in where I want them and make sure I'm not stuck running someone 44 minutes.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's happening any time soon. I'm going to have to decide whether to say "screw it" and finally train stamina now since there's little point in adding more FT training, or do some really ineffective training for Busch/Klein/Cheek to avoid having team training contribute to skill drops for my 33 year olds.

Not a bad idea. I'd also like that break down per position. I've generally had backups that were very heavy on offense or very heavy on defense. Depending on the match-ups I might like to play one more often than the rest of the backups.

Also an option to have your starters sub in/out when the other teams starters are in, as well as the opposite, more of a free wheeling substitution regardless of whose in for the other team.

I also think that adjusting game shape doesn't get to the real issue, which is the substitution logic.

The GE seems to make substitutions when the guy on the floor has become tired to the point that the next guy is an overall better option. As a result, a player with high stamina doesn't sub out because his value doesn't drop enough so that the backup is a better option.

By that logic, most NBA stars would never be subbed out. Really they are subbed out when they need a rest in order to allow them to play at a higher level throughout the remainder of the game. Better to take a few minutes of a lesser player in each of the first three quarters so that the star is still at a very high level at the end of the game.

Yep. Which is why I pretty much hate training stamina, since I like my team to get more balanced minutes. I know last season a couple of times (mostly PL I think, though), when I'd run a slow offense and not get a blowout, Schultz would end up playing 46 or more minutes, and that's with only respectable stamina. Philosophically, I'd love to have good stamina on my players, since every little bit of advantage helps, but still maintain the ability to get at least 12 minutes if not more from my backups. I've suggested several times that there should be some sort of sub priority by position in the lineup - "run them ragged" (keep starters in as much as possible) / "rotate frequently" (aim for 24/24) / "normal rotation" (36/12ish) / "let coach decide" for example. I'd love to be able to have my three big men play in rotation at the four and five, and have the ability to have the guards/SF positions be set up so that I could put specific players in where I want them and make sure I'm not stuck running someone 44 minutes.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's happening any time soon. I'm going to have to decide whether to say "screw it" and finally train stamina now since there's little point in adding more FT training, or do some really ineffective training for Busch/Klein/Cheek to avoid having team training contribute to skill drops for my 33 year olds.

I think this was a main argument for running a blank line-up - you didn't get 45-48 mins a game for players unless you had a 6 or 7 man rotation and someone was injured or fouled out. The blank line up was THE ONLY WAY to regularly get around the minute issue without blowouts. Now that is gone and the substitution logic in the GE hasn't improved. The stamina GS issue helps a tad. It's quite frustrating to not be able to rotate 3 bigs at the 4 and 5 for 35, 35, 26 mins. Right now if you have 3 bigs and set one backup at the 4 and 5, one starter with the best stamina will play 47 mins, the other 30 and sub 19. It's foolish.

It's quite frustrating to not be able to rotate 3 bigs at the 4 and 5 for 35, 35, 26 mins. Right now if you have 3 bigs and set one backup at the 4 and 5, one starter with the best stamina will play 47 mins, the other 30 and sub 19. It's foolish.

I've had my big men for a long time and hated stamina for a long time, so with Busch and Klein at inept, I was able to get a 42-38-16 split the last time I tried it (PL game during the playoffs). Of course, part of the problem also is that there are fewer substitution opportunities here than in real basketball - the game engine simply does not seem to process sub logic when rebounds go out of bounds, and I know I've seen games in the past where there'd be five or six minutes between substitution opportunities when I'm not going foul crazy.