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Well, let's put it this way. They all have issues with the current situation, even Malice recognised as much.

There is one side (Trainerman) proposing a solution. There is another side saying they recognise the problem but dismissing any solution. I don't see any constructive criticism from this second side.

If they do believe there is a problem they should also propose a solution, not just criticise proposals from others. Otherwise if there is a problem and they don't have any better solution they should ask the managers in that situation what they think about the proposals which have been put forward (even if they don't agree with them).

My guess is nobody wants to ask the managers in micronations because they would vote to be able to change the nation given the choice (one of the proposals from Trainerman)

That is not a solution for the micronations, that is a solution for some users.

There you are, the heart of the matter.

Yes this is indeed the heart of the matter and if there are no better proposals (do you have any? Just curious) they should let them vote, because the same argument applies tenfold to the current system ("it only works for some users"), as it actually works for no known user (even Malice isn't entirely happy with the current situation).

Last edited by Lemonshine at 1/23/2015 12:44:26 PM

We are all somewhere. We all make the best of where we are.

Well, not all of us, I guess.

There is one side (Trainerman) proposing a solution. There is another side saying they recognise the problem but dismissing any solution. I don't see any constructive criticism from this second side.

No, there is one guy insisting (over and over) that he hates his situation. His "solutions" don't fly because he overstates the "problem" and each "solution" makes things worse.

...if there are no better proposals (do you have any? Just curious)...

I do. Bloom where you are planted and shut up about it.

Look, I understand where you're coming from, but I could tell you the same thing you told me in the other thread (both sides here are doing it). Besides neither you nor I should have a say in this, so while I accept the "it's not great, but if there is no solution leave it as it is" take from Malice, I don't think people in 100+ nations are qualified to tell those who live there how they game experience should be.

It's for the BBs and the users in those (micro)nations to decide that. Here you have a fundamental difference between 2 views and both claim to represent the majority. Let them have a poll so it's clear if there is a problem, how big the problem is and what solution people would prefer as a solution. I understand revolutioning the system may not be possible, but letting people relocate (under certain rules) should be allowed if the majority feels that way and if the BBs, the EGMs you or anybody else cannot come up with a better solution. The rest is hot air.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 1/23/2015 6:17:47 PM

Would you seriously report us and get us all closed down. Would you work together with perpete to make sure we didn'T play BB at all since we were not longer willing to do the, full on retarded, JBBL nonsense?

Wolph, it's never been *me* reporting teams for real or perceived cheating...

I applaud you for being supportive of the NT/U21 team - in particular the U21 team. I also agree with you on the issue of Japanese names (and even more the appearances!)... I do disagree with you on what a fix for the overall situation is, and to what degree it's actually a problem.

I guess that's where we find ourselves.

I do agree there is not many people in micronations (hence the name), but if you allow some of those managers to play elsewhere, there will be even less people in those nations, bleeding them even more.

That is not a solution for the micronations, that is a solution for some users.

There you are, the heart of the matter.

Ball for you, Mike.

Ok then let me reprhase: there is no solution without extreme effects. We don't want extreme effects so there is no solution. This is one side of the argument.

I'd like to know what the other managers in nations with less than 20 users think, but I buy Trainerman's argument that forcing people to play in a place where they get a bad experience is not very good for business and that the majority would prefer to have some kind of extra flexibility.

I just don't understand. We don't want people to be allowed to relocate because there will be even fewer people playing in that country (don't remember if it was you or Malice) and make the problem bigger, however if people are allowed to relocate from 20 or less user nations, the people staying back, like Malice, would stay back because they enjoy playing in those circumstances.

I think the only real solution is to boost the number of users or allow for some flexibility, but, again, it's not for me to say so. We got 2 countries without users, I think it's only a matter of time till the next one.

so while I accept the "it's not great, but if there is no solution leave it as it is" take from Malice, I don't think people in 100+ nations are qualified to tell those who live there how they game experience should be. It's for the BBs and the users in those (micro)nations to decide that. Here you have a fundamental difference between 2 views and both claim to represent the majority.

A few things...
- I agree on 100+ nation folk not really understanding or indeed needing to...
- Hold a sec on the "both-claim-to-represent" crap. I have repeatedly stated that I do not know what others think... just offering a different point of view to the other side of the coin that says they do (and then largely refers to people who are no longer here).

In all likelihood, and some point I'll bail on BB. Not soon, that's for sure - I'm still enjoying the game (especially having had my first taste of B3 last season!!!). But it's inevitable for 99% of users. It's a very small group of users who can't seem to walk away, no matter what.
It's simply a reality of the majority of pastimes that eventually, we move on. For the most part.

There is one side (Trainerman) proposing a solution. There is another side saying they recognise the problem but dismissing any solution. I don't see any constructive criticism from this second side.

That's a bit of a misrepresentation...
I think that the flipside of the *solution* on offer from wolph (combining current micros into a regional conglomerate - is Japan even really a micro with supposedly 20 users? In the past 10-or-fewer has been 'micro'...) would result in fewer teams than the current sum of those nations. I can only speak for myself, but if that were the solution, I think my interest would wane considerably.
I like being a part of something, I'm actively involved in the community (for all the disparagement wolph gives that) - on another browser-based sports game I am happy to be the 8th ranked team in Kyushu! I've found Utopia takes far more of an effort... partly because of the way to access my team is rather convoluted (surely we could have an ever-present button on every page to switch) and cumbersome, but also partly because of the generic identity Utopia has. It's not as interesting as my home nation. Yes, I do understand that this is my opinion, and may not be one shared by others. I'm cool with that.

Wolph's a kind of special situation. I honestly think he should be allowed to play in the US... 'expats' are a bit of a wrinkle... but ultimately - that's a decision for the BBs (one they appear to have already made).

On voting... in my limited experience, the vast majority of users (of all nations) in BB tend to be not that active on the forums. Or voting (I know that from the results of our NT elections). I would be very careful about having the future of BB for a significant number of users be determined by a very vocal minority.

Last edited by malice at 1/23/2015 7:03:55 PM

That's all right. I understand that this is a problem, but there must be a way to assess the situation. The only other way is to objectively assess the turnover statistically as a percentage of the total population.